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Author Topic: B.S.A. Bullpup  (Read 616 times)

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shy talk

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B.S.A. Bullpup
« on: March 24, 2018, 03:57:48 PM »

If you read the Air Gunner magazine, in the May 2018 issue, page 23 there is an article written by the editor, Phil Price about
 B.S.A.'s brand new bullpup air rifle. It is named  ( "Defiant" ). Price, with a ( Walnut & black soft touch ), stock  £1049-00,
 with a ( black pepper ) stock  £1099-00. 31 inches in length,  9.5 pounds in weight, ( 4.3 kg ) looks ok but I will reserve judgement until I see it in the " flesh."  Or should that be " wood & steel ". Also on page 16 there is a full page B.S.A. AD   and I think the ad is saying that the Defiant comes with a synthetic lockable rifle case, the ad also gives the shot count as
 .177-110- shots,---- .22- 120- shots, and it comes with a new B.S.A. regulator, and ergonomic spring assisted side lever
 cocking.    A.T.B.  shy talk
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rkr

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Re: B.S.A. Bullpup
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2018, 06:55:17 PM »

It uses gamo coyote action and BSA regulators are crap. It's good to know those two things if you consider buying one.
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Bluetoe

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Re: B.S.A. Bullpup
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2018, 06:56:01 PM »

"Price, with a ( Walnut & black soft touch ), stock  £1049-00"
It would have to come with a diamond encrusted solid gold stock before I'd pay that for an air rifle, particularly some current model Gamo done up like a tarts handbag. Using in house parts means cheap to produce, very little spent on developing the concept just tell Minelli (or whoewer ) what you want and their cad machine will churn it out all day long at no more expense than a normal stock, all that needs to be thought about is the set forward trigger and that is hardly ground breaking, just copy someone elses .  I'd be very surprised if they cost even £400 to build and using in house parts means next to no development costs. I for one will NEVER buy a new air rifle again the prices being asked are a total pi55take and it is way past funny now. Rant over PAH!!!!!! Over a grand JFHChrist!!!
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RANCiDTOM

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Re: B.S.A. Bullpup
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2018, 11:02:59 PM »

I would say BSA have taken a leaf out of the Daystate book, call it a limited edition and charge the earth for it, a few avid collectors will buy it no matter what the price.
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Re: B.S.A. Bullpup
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2018, 11:07:49 PM »

The worst point I can think of about this rifle (apart from the fact the bullpup design means a ridiculously high sight line) is that it will be using the Gamo trigger with some sort of remote link rod/s allowing an even poorer feel to the trigger due to play/backlash and bending/flexing in the trigger link rods. I haven't yet seen one with the stock off so I can't comment on exactly how it has been designed to work with the forward trigger and cocking links but I bet it's bits of wire and plastic pivots. I certainly wouldn't pay more than £300 for one even if I liked bullpups but that's my personal opinion.
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Bluetoe

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Re: B.S.A. Bullpup
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2018, 01:00:30 AM »

Once upon a time guns designed and manufactured in Birmingham ruled the World. Terraced street urchins like myself would drool over the BSA and Webley air rifles in the mail order catalogues. The first brand new air rifle I owned was a Webley Hawk MkI with both .22 and .177 barrels and a 4x15 scope (they all had similar 4x15 scopes but BSA's version was plastic:)) What a masterstroke that was by Webley! 2 calibres in one! I was hooked. It was bought from Grattans catalogue no deposit and 40 easy weekly payments. Whether you got a Webley or a BSA fierce brand loyalty was formed. We all used the same pellets though, Milbro Caledonians from a local sports shop, in cardboard boxes of 100 or 500. The rich kids went to proper gun shops to buy foreign sounding Spitz Kugelns for their foreign sounding rifles, you never saw a Weihrauch or Feinwerkbau in the mail order catalogues! Consequently the BSA's and Webleys massively outsold the imports, but then something happened, more and more Cars, Bikes and Trucks became European and Japanese, then something else happened, Britain itself became "European" and slowly but surely all those long established, World reknowned Companies became "European" as well.  Spanish made Barcelona Small Arms , Wobbly Turkish Webleys, to say nothing of German Rolls Royces and Bentleys etc. I've owned many BSA and Webley products over the past 40 some years and Yes, I blame the EU for the downfall, Yes, I voted OUT, and if we get out quick and can compete in a World market once more we may save what little we have left.
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rkr

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Re: B.S.A. Bullpup
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2018, 01:29:21 PM »

"Price, with a ( Walnut & black soft touch ), stock  £1049-00"
It would have to come with a diamond encrusted solid gold stock before I'd pay that for an air rifle, particularly some current model Gamo done up like a tarts handbag. Using in house parts means cheap to produce, very little spent on developing the concept just tell Minelli (or whoewer ) what you want and their cad machine will churn it out all day long at no more expense than a normal stock, all that needs to be thought about is the set forward trigger and that is hardly ground breaking, just copy someone elses .  I'd be very surprised if they cost even £400 to build and using in house parts means next to no development costs. I for one will NEVER buy a new air rifle again the prices being asked are a total pi55take and it is way past funny now. Rant over PAH!!!!!! Over a grand JFHChrist!!!

You also need to figure out the front cocking lever using existing breech system, that's harder than the trigger part.
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Bluetoe

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Re: B.S.A. Bullpup
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2018, 03:27:34 PM »

You also need to figure out the front cocking lever using existing breech system, that's harder than the trigger part.

While I do agree that it may not be simple I still do not see anything to justify the price. There are plenty of bullpup designs on the market, BSA has apparently looked at the market and decided Defiant (damn good name though) should be in the same price bracket as, for example the Cricket, Wildcat and Vulcan.  I'm not sure about that one. The Evanix Rainstorm & Max M1 and the Hatsan Gladius are several hundred pounds less, The up to £600 price bracket is where I believe the Defiant belongs and I think it would sell very well indeed at that price. For £1000 a Coyote Black Multishot AND a Scorpion SE Multishot could be bought! My own preference with a Grand burning a hole in my pocket would be to look for a decent 2nd user Daystate Pulsar or one of these which I foolishly sold long ago and cash left over for pellets which with a 98 shot mag and pump action don't last very long at all
« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 03:29:06 PM by Bluetoe »
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K38

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Re: B.S.A. Bullpup
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2018, 06:31:38 PM »

Once upon a time guns designed and manufactured in Birmingham ruled the World. Terraced street urchins like myself would drool over the BSA and Webley air rifles in the mail order catalogues. The first brand new air rifle I owned was a Webley Hawk MkI with both .22 and .177 barrels and a 4x15 scope (they all had similar 4x15 scopes but BSA's version was plastic:)) What a masterstroke that was by Webley! 2 calibres in one! I was hooked. It was bought from Grattans catalogue no deposit and 40 easy weekly payments. Whether you got a Webley or a BSA fierce brand loyalty was formed. We all used the same pellets though, Milbro Caledonians from a local sports shop, in cardboard boxes of 100 or 500. The rich kids went to proper gun shops to buy foreign sounding Spitz Kugelns for their foreign sounding rifles, you never saw a Weihrauch or Feinwerkbau in the mail order catalogues! Consequently the BSA's and Webleys massively outsold the imports, but then something happened, more and more Cars, Bikes and Trucks became European and Japanese, then something else happened, Britain itself became "European" and slowly but surely all those long established, World reknowned Companies became "European" as well.  Spanish made Barcelona Small Arms , Wobbly Turkish Webleys, to say nothing of German Rolls Royces and Bentleys etc. I've owned many BSA and Webley products over the past 40 some years and Yes, I blame the EU for the downfall, Yes, I voted OUT, and if we get out quick and can compete in a World market once more we may save what little we have left.
   A history of a once great country Bluetoe. Inept ownership and out of touch management and interest hungry Banks..
   You may find this thread interesting   http://bsaog.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=56361.0   
   Maybe that is how the name was chosen  :25:
   I bet you cant buy a wire coat hanger in Birmingham for love nor money rkr..
   One company seems to defy the norm and flourish Air Arms to me is worthy of your support ..
   Unfortunately I  am now only interested in "classic BSAs "..
   Increadable value for money and a satisfaction level far greater than the modern overpriced "STUFF" ..
   Have a good Easter fellow members ..Spring is just around the corner ...
 
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Cyclopse

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Re: B.S.A. Bullpup
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2018, 09:55:53 PM »

I luv the look of it. If I could afford one I would have one.
I have been a BSA fan since I passed my Motor Bike test in 1964 on a BSA C15 250cc. I am 71 now and I aint going to change, I have a Goldstar SE, a Scorpion T10 and a 1969 Airsporter,  Although I shoot 3 times a week at the club they are all a better gun than what I can shoot and no doubt the new Defiant would be. I do the lottery so I shall keep my fingers crossed.
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Bluetoe

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Re: B.S.A. Bullpup
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2018, 10:54:49 PM »

   A history of a once great country Bluetoe. Inept ownership and out of touch management and interest hungry Banks..
   You may find this thread interesting   http://bsaog.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=56361.0   
   Maybe that is how the name was chosen  :25:
   I bet you cant buy a wire coat hanger in Birmingham for love nor money rkr..
   One company seems to defy the norm and flourish Air Arms to me is worthy of your support ..
   Unfortunately I  am now only interested in "classic BSAs "..
   Increadable value for money and a satisfaction level far greater than the modern overpriced "STUFF" ..
   Have a good Easter fellow members ..Spring is just around the corner ...
 
As you say an interesting thread and a good example of the love 'em / hate 'em opinions bullpups seem to attract. 
 I like them, for me a bullpup feels more "locked in" to the shoulder and steadier on aim than a long gun, as mentioned though, the trigger linkage has to be top notch and the position of the cocking mechanism can be a problem, RancidTom raises an interesting point about pump action cocking, perhaps that is why Skan abandoned the fore end pump action of the earlier bullpups for the sliding pistol grip action of the R32 Speedstar?
I agree wholeheartedly with your comments about Air Arms, I've had an S410 TDR and a TX200 HC for a few years now and so far nothing else has tempted me to replace them as my top two.
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rkr

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Re: B.S.A. Bullpup
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2018, 07:01:31 AM »

Wire coat hangers won't do for trigger linkage, they flex way too much. A hardened 4mm rod is IMO minimum requirement there and even then it would be good to have some support in the middle (yes, I've built some pups). That is actually the reason why purpose built bullpups have a pull type trigger linkage which of course necessitates a redesigned sear release. Now if BSA recognized that and made a new pull type trigger system for the pup, it could actually be rather good. If it's just a push type system incorporated to the gamo trigger unit, then it is likely to be rather poor.
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RANCiDTOM

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Re: B.S.A. Bullpup
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2018, 11:11:50 AM »

Wire coat hangers won't do for trigger linkage, they flex way too much. A hardened 4mm rod is IMO minimum requirement there and even then it would be good to have some support in the middle (yes, I've built some pups). That is actually the reason why purpose built bullpups have a pull type trigger linkage which of course necessitates a redesigned sear release. Now if BSA recognized that and made a new pull type trigger system for the pup, it could actually be rather good. If it's just a push type system incorporated to the gamo trigger unit, then it is likely to be rather poor.
It is a bit of sarcasm to use the term "coat hanger wire" but as we've seen on many cheap bullpups it's been used along with many "garden shed" engineered bullpups. I suspect Gamo/BSA have worked under the "must be cheap to produce" directive rather than the "best possible solution regardless of expense and complexity" approach. While I'm not saying that a good trigger cannot be achieved with push rods it gets more difficult to build with either large diameter rods (or tubes) with proper rose joint ball ends and possibly even pivoting/sliding bearing guides to limit flex in the middle of long push rods.
As you correctly say a pull rod is a far better approach due to the elimination of flexing (so long as the cranks and pivot points don't flex) under tension. A pull rod system could be quite easily fitted with the use of a bell crank to convert pull to push at the actual trigger sear, it all comes down to how much room there is available in the stock around the sear block.
Daystate avoided these problems by using their electronic trigger on their bullpup, however the cocking mechanism isn't in the most ergonomic place, it's up by your ear.
So far in my opinion the only well thought out and reasonably well engineered bullpup is the FX Wildcat. I've stripped and rebuilt them and although not as simple as a "normal" FX rifle the trigger link is a pull rod and the cocking lever is just above the pistol grip meaning it is easy and quick to operate without taking your trigger hand too far away from the grip while cocking.
How have BSA linked their trigger and exactly what trigger block mechanism have they used? I don't know just yet as I haven't seen one with the stock off, until I get one in for service or modification I'll not comment on it other than to make a reserved judgement that it appears to be the Gamo trigger block but that is only my assumption having seen pics of the complete gun. Knowing the Gamo trigger to be absolutely awful I don't hold much hope at all.
As everyone has probably assumed I don't see any attraction personally for a bullpup unless we could have a semi-auto but our UK laws make this rather difficult if not impossible so I doubt that any manufacturer would set up to make in the UK or bother to try importing (if they are overseas). We may get a brave manufacturer or importer who wants to test the interpretation of our firearms laws but it could end up being a rather expensive mistake for them so I doubt anyone will try. I can see there is a valid need for a small light pointable self loading sub12 for ratting in barns but will a manufacturer actually want to take the risk of a design that ends up falling foul of UK legislation?
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rkr

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Re: B.S.A. Bullpup
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2018, 11:35:35 AM »

As far as best pup design goes I do prefer Vulcan over Wildcat as you can switch the side of the front sidelever. There are also Priest and Colibri with front pullback style cocking which might actually be better than a front sidelever (I have not tried one of those). My experience with front cocking sidelever is that for a right handed shooter cocking on the left side is better. As you say a compact semi auto pup would be the best of all, I believe Calibrgun Capybara might be the answer once it comes out.
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Bluetoe

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Re: B.S.A. Bullpup
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2018, 12:52:16 PM »

I recall an article in one of the air gun magazines, probably late 90's / early 00's which featured an interview with Steve Harper who designed the Harper Wolf electronic trigger rifle and pistol. The interviewer asked if a semi auto version was possible. Harpers reply was yes and that he had already built a prototype, however during discussions with his local firearms licensing department he was told that while a semi auto air gun was not legally prohibited they strongly advised him not to produce one commercially so the idea was dropped.
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mick.c

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Re: B.S.A. Bullpup
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2018, 09:09:41 PM »

Well I picked up a Defiant or whatever its called at the Northern Shooting show....god its heavy its got a high sight line which I don't like anyway didn't like the soft touch stock...well I think it was soft touch then the chap from Gamo...sorry BSA started to tell me its got a better reg and it uses the same barrel that are on the Goldstar so its super accurate...haha. He says it been in the pipeline for over 2 years changing this and that to get it where it is today...well its not my cup of tea but others will disagree....cheers

Mick
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Re: B.S.A. Bullpup
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2018, 08:19:32 AM »

Just had a look at the new Defiant and wow its ugly.
I just cant get my head round why anyone would pay the asking price?.
Give it a year or two and they will be on Gunstar for a quarter of the price.
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Re: B.S.A. Bullpup
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2018, 10:45:15 AM »

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Re: B.S.A. Bullpup
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2018, 05:37:06 PM »

That’s one ugly son of a gun. The scope height would put me off before I even picked it up
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Re: B.S.A. Bullpup
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2018, 07:18:26 AM »

That’s one ugly son of a gun. The scope height would put me off before I even picked it up

It is unnecessarily high if compared for example to Huub's BSA pups:


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Ranger22

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Re: B.S.A. Bullpup
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2018, 09:49:01 AM »

Yep that’s much better
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RANCiDTOM

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Re: B.S.A. Bullpup
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2018, 11:51:45 AM »

As Riku pointed out Huub's design elvated the scope approx 10-12mm above the standard scope rail height yet BSA have added an unnecessary extra 25mm+ possibly 30mm (difficult to tell exactly, I've not seen any specs to say what the scope to barrel centre height is but I can see from the pics its too much).
Doubtless tehre will be some dedicated followers of the bullpup fashion willing to spend on one of these, how long before they sell them or start modifying them to be a little more practical? Only time will tell. I've not had one to look at let alone take to pieces yet, if anyone has bought one and wishes to allow me to strip it to photograph the important bits of trigger and cocking linkages I'm willing to spend some time being as impartial as I can be critiqueing the engineering, if I find anything positive to say I will say it even though I admit to being rather cynical of the effectiveness and practicality of such designs.
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Re: B.S.A. Bullpup
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2018, 09:36:08 AM »

The Airgun world article shows the lower scope rail for the Uk market...
http://www.airgunshooting.co.uk/news/gun-test-bsa-defiant-1-5493287
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