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Author Topic: DAFT Silencer LAW  (Read 11265 times)

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nail it

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DAFT Silencer LAW
« on: July 31, 2012, 11:49:00 AM »

OK Im probably off target on this one but ive had a thought about this DAFT law about posting Silencers/Mods.
If the seller were to fire a pellet through the mod before accepting your payment then it would be USED. If the seller then took off 1p from the NEW ITEM price because it is now USED  could'nt the seller then post the Silencer/Mod too you...... /smile/
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hypoboy

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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2012, 12:41:35 PM »

Not if they're an RFD. The issue isn't whether it's old or new - but whether it's your property or theirs. If you send them your mod for repair or modification work, they can send it back afterwards. If however you buy a secondhand one from them, they can't send it to you, the same way they can't send you a secondhand gun. None of this is of any relevance if it's a private seller.
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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2012, 01:27:04 PM »

I will add to the above, that anyone manufacturing a silencer/moderator/flash arrestor for any other person must be a "manufacturing RFD" and as such cannot post a silencer, new or secondhand.
You may make a silencer for your own use (if you are not an RFD) but cannot sell it, swap it, (barter, exchange, call it what you will) or give it away as a gift or in the form of goods in exchange for services etc.
Thank the VCR act for preventing RFD's posting guns or silencers (new or secondhand), but an RFD can send a gun or silencer to another RFD for you to collect. Repairs are exempt from this particular restriction.
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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2012, 07:29:17 PM »

 /ahhh1/ /ahhh1/ /ahhh1/  character0029  character0029  character0029  /hmmph/  /hmmph/  /hmmph/......


                                 
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 09:37:54 PM by boomer »
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BillK

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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2012, 10:08:27 PM »

Agreed.
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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2012, 10:10:28 PM »

The law was brought in to stop underage or criminal purchase of silencers online with no face to face ID confirmation. As usual legislation is more of a pain for the law abiding shooter (and RFD).
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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2012, 10:30:21 PM »

Would a RFD be allowed to 'rent out' a moderator on a, say, 10 year lease, and then post it
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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2012, 10:53:33 PM »

Nice bit of devious lateral thinking tippy  /clappp/7

The relevant laws always state "sells or transfers". Technically, transfers probably isn't the same thing as a lease/rental, but I wouldn't mind betting that the CPS would pursue a prosecution arguing that it is if the need arose. Technically, it's not illegal to post an airgun silencer as such. The problem is, how can you prove that a silencer can or will only ever be used on a sub 12 ft lb airgun, rather than an FAC gun? The CPS have little to lose in attempting to prosecute someone. The RFD being prosecuted could lose their license, job, business, home, or even their freedom, so understandably a lot seem very conservative in interpreting things.

Truth be told, most RFDs probably loved the introduction of the VCR Act, as it effectively rendered guns immune to price erosion brought about by EU competition laws and the ease of mail order price comparison. Unfortunately, a lot also failed to realise that they didn't survive solely on the profit from guns and that everything else they sell would become more aggressively priced, which probably explains why quite a few have gone into receivership in the current tight trading conditions. They also benefit from another angle. Ever collected a gun that's been sent to your local RFD? Bet it wasn't the only thing you left the shop with if so!
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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2012, 03:18:33 AM »

A silencer/moderator is listed as a "firearm accessory or component" and as such has to be recorded in the register of sales, hence the VCR act applies. Face to face with proof of identity and age.
As regards to the "lease" of a firearm, firearm accessory or component part:
From the Home Office document "Firearms law, guidance to police" 2002.
Quote
The word “sell” is often used throughout
the Act in conjunction with the word
“transfer”. Transfer is defined in section 57(4)
of the 1968 Act as including letting on hire,
giving, lending and parting with possession.

No "loopholes" there then.

The 1937 firearms act section 16 states
Quote
16: Firearms and ammunition to which Part I applies
(1)This Part of this Act applies to all firearms as defined in section thirty-two of this Act, except the following weapons and component parts thereof and accessories thereto, namely—
(a)a smooth bore gun having a barrel not less than twenty inches in length;
(b)an air gun, air rifle or air pistol not being of a type declared by rules made by a Secretary of State under this Act to be specially dangerous.
and section 32 of the same act states:
Quote
32: Interpretation
(1)In this Act the following expressions have the meanings hereby respectively assigned to them:—
" acquiring" means hiring, accepting as a gift and borrowing and the expressions " acquire " and " acquisition" shall be construed accordingly;

" ammunition," except where otherwise expressly provided, means ammunition for any firearm as hereinafter defined, and includes grenades, bombs and other like missiles, whether capable of use with such a firearm or not, and prohibited ammunition;

" area " means a police area as defined in section thirty of the Police (Pensions) Act, 1921;

" chief officer of police " has the meaning assigned to it by section thirty of the Police (Pensions) Act, 1921;

" firearm," except where otherwise expressly provided, means any lethal barrelled weapon of any description from which any shot, bullet or other missile can be discharged and includes any prohibited weapon, whether it is such a lethal weapon as aforesaid or not, any component part of any such lethal or prohibited weapon, and any accessory to any such weapon designed or adapted to diminish the noise or flash caused by firing the weapon;
Quite simple when you know where to look. It's a shame the firearms legislation is actually a bit of a nightmare to search through with it's original act being 1937 and the subsequent amendments adding further restrictions and not necessarily "clarifying" any previous acts or amendments.
In a nutshell the firearms act defines an air rifle as a firearm and a silencer as an accessory to a firearm (no mention of proof marks or serial numbers) and that all such transactions involving firearms, component parts or accessories by an RFD must be recorded in the register.
The VCR act defined that no firearm (or pressure bearing component, or accessory) may be posted by an RFD except to another RFD for the purposes of sale or transfer.
The VCR act also stated that airgun repairs may be posted from an RFD to the address of the owner of the item. Not to any other address.
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bucketboy

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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2012, 08:48:25 AM »

If you want a custom shroud or silencer made to your specification, PM me ...............






















.................and I give you some advice on which lathe to buy. /smile/


Bb
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hypoboy

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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2012, 01:31:16 PM »

16: Firearms and ammunition to which Part I applies
(1)This Part of this Act applies to all firearms as defined in section thirty-two of this Act, except the following weapons and component parts thereof and accessories thereto, namely—
(a)a smooth bore gun having a barrel not less than twenty inches in length;
(b)an air gun, air rifle or air pistol not being of a type declared by rules made by a Secretary of State under this Act to be specially dangerous.

It's just annoying that section 16.(1)(b), which exempts parts for sub 12 ft lbs is as good as useless, as there's nothing which makes the part(s) specific only to non-FAC guns. It's almost as if they specifically intended to allow postage of things like sub 12 silencers, etc, but overlooked this point.
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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2012, 02:08:11 PM »

It's just annoying that section 16.(1)(b), which exempts parts for sub 12 ft lbs is as good as useless, as there's nothing which makes the part(s) specific only to non-FAC guns. It's almost as if they specifically intended to allow postage of things like sub 12 silencers, etc, but overlooked this point.


When the 1937 act came into force there were no restrictions on mail order sales of sub12 and non-proofed silencers for use on airguns. It was only the VCR act that restricted the sale from RFD's to being face to face or transfer to other RFD.
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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2012, 02:35:09 PM »

It was only the VCR act that restricted the sale from RFD's to being face to face or transfer to other RFD.

Only for guns though isn't it? I'm sure I checked before and the VCR makes no mention of airgun components in the same was as the Firearms Act?
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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2012, 02:41:07 PM »

secetary of STATE.........?     can any one name a state in England for me please  /smile/
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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2012, 05:33:29 PM »

We're all in a bankrupt state.
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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2012, 05:39:26 PM »

Only for guns though isn't it? I'm sure I checked before and the VCR makes no mention of airgun components in the same was as the Firearms Act?
As defined by the firearms act an airgun is a firearm even if below 12ftlb (and 6 for pistols).
I don't know if any RFD has yet been prosecuted under the VCR act for sale of a silencer or component via mail. It may be worth finding if there has been a prosecution and on what grounds?
I along with the rest of the gun trade will not be posting guns or silencers as part of sale or transfer except to another RFD or a face to face collection from me.
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hypoboy

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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2012, 06:40:46 PM »

I along with the rest of the gun trade will not be posting guns or silencers as part of sale or transfer except to another RFD or a face to face collection from me.

I can absolutely understand that RT, for the reasons I mentioned in a previous post. I'd probably take the same stance in your position. I think technically though, it's not strictly illegal to sell component parts for a gun, including silencers, if you could reasonably conclude they're for use on a non-FAC gun. I was just thinking about this as I was driving home. If the law was reworded to specifically outlaw "guns not specifically declared as especially dangerous, or any component part" or similar, it'd effectively render sending anything from a trigger to a breach seal as illegal and put companies like Chambers on a very dangerous financial footing. 
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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2012, 10:44:42 AM »

I can absolutely understand that RT, for the reasons I mentioned in a previous post. I'd probably take the same stance in your position. I think technically though, it's not strictly illegal to sell component parts for a gun, including silencers, if you could reasonably conclude they're for use on a non-FAC gun. I was just thinking about this as I was driving home. If the law was reworded to specifically outlaw "guns not specifically declared as especially dangerous, or any component part" or similar, it'd effectively render sending anything from a trigger to a breach seal as illegal and put companies like Chambers on a very dangerous financial footing.
It is quite legal to sell any non-pressure bearing part of a firearm. However, if it is something like a moderator, then that is a pressure part. Now turning to the requirement of an F.A.C. for moderators (note the wording), nothing can tell the vendor that it is not going to be used on a Firearm. Hence the requirement of an F.A.C. and face to face sale. Playing safe, you bet, but it is their livelyhood so, the risk of prosecution is too great for them to take the chance. You can purchase a length of barrel with out an F.A.C. However, once it is chambered for a cartridge then it becomes a firearm because it is now a pressure part. Shotgun barrels are not subject to restriction. That is what case law is all about, the law is passed and the courts make it workable!
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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2012, 12:46:08 PM »

It is quite legal to sell any non-pressure bearing part of a firearm. However, if it is something like a moderator, then that is a pressure part. Now turning to the requirement of an F.A.C. for moderators (note the wording), nothing can tell the vendor that it is not going to be used on a Firearm. Hence the requirement of an F.A.C. and face to face sale. Playing safe, you bet, but it is their livelyhood so, the risk of prosecution is too great for them to take the chance. You can purchase a length of barrel with out an F.A.C. However, once it is chambered for a cartridge then it becomes a firearm because it is now a pressure part. Shotgun barrels are not subject to restriction. That is what case law is all about, the law is passed and the courts make it workable!

I'll quite happily accept all of that as gospel Chris if you can point out a bit of legislation which says as much. Hopefully you can, as I've spent hours scouring it all for the same info! I'm fairly sure though that you can technically supply any part for an air gun under 12 ft lbs, as the VCR Act seems to make no mention of anything other than guns, and the Firearms Act excludes sub 12 fpe.

The aspect of cross compatibility between sub 12 and FAC is obviously a potential pitfall but, in my experience, courts are actually quite sensible when it comes to "reasonable proof" and I'd suspect they would consider an RFD supplying a barrel in response to, say, a written order stating the serial number for a non-FAC gun to be perfectly acceptable.
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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2012, 04:21:55 PM »

I for one am perfectly happy to have the inconvenience of the VCR law. Yes it makes it a bit harder to place your hands on some items...but that's the point. I feel better knowing that it is harder for the people who would use those items unlawfully to lay their hands on them.
So suck it up folks it's all in the name of safety and keeping abuse of our chosen sporting implements to a minimum.
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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2012, 08:14:55 PM »

I for one am perfectly happy to have the inconvenience of the VCR law.
I'm not. I don't see why, as a legitimate and responsible sport, we're told we have to accept it, just because gun crime happens. It's especially relevant with air guns, as there are apparently millions in circulation and they're rarely used in serious violent crime. Our freedom to pursue a legitimate and traditional pastime is slowly being eroded at the behest of an ignorant and misinformed public who have no real concept of how minute the number of serious air gun related incidents really is.

I also think that the industry as a whole may be either misinterpreting legislation, or exploiting it as a commercial advantage to maintain a cartel type arrangement with a lot of products. You say you're happy to have the inconvenience of the VCR, but are you also happy to have to pay 20-30% too much for a gun or silencer? If the VCR Act hadn't come into existence, market forces would undoubtedly have had a far greater effect and would undoubtedly have forced companies to run more efficiently and to operate on much lower margins. I've seen it happen countless time over the last 15 or so years. If RFDs collectively spread fear and paranoia, it stops companies like BAR, Uttings, JSR, etc mail ordering, competing and market prices coming down as a result.

There's also the issue of the EU and free competition. As an EU member (unfortunately), we should operate under the principle of a single free market economy, where an individual or company can operate anywhere without commercial disadvantage. Yet it's clear that UK companies, constrained by the VCR Act are significantly disadvantaged, as they can't mail order guns, when a company from outside the UK can.

At the end of the day, if there is no law restricting the mail order delivery of things like silencers, we shouldn't have to capitulate out of fear. If, as I suspect, there's nothing which specifically restricts sale of sub 12 ft lb components, it would be naive to seek the advice of the Police, BASC, etc, at face value and to start a mail order market based on that alone. But, if it is lawful, there's nothing to stop us collectively taking the question to a higher authority for clarification.
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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2012, 08:18:17 PM »

I for one am perfectly happy to have the inconvenience of the VCR law. Yes it makes it a bit harder to place your hands on some items...but that's the point. I feel better knowing that it is harder for the people who would use those items unlawfully to lay their hands on them.
So suck it up folks it's all in the name of safety and keeping abuse of our chosen sporting implements to a minimum.

you really think it would make a differance if you where going to commit a crime?
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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2012, 08:53:00 PM »

I'm not. I don't see why, as a legitimate and responsible sport, we're told we have to accept it, just because gun crime happens. It's especially relevant with air guns, as there are apparently millions in circulation and they're rarely used in serious violent crime. Our freedom to pursue a legitimate and traditional pastime is slowly being eroded at the behest of an ignorant and misinformed public who have no real concept of how minute the number of serious air gun related incidents really is.

I also think that the industry as a whole may be either misinterpreting legislation, or exploiting it as a commercial advantage to maintain a cartel type arrangement with a lot of products. You say you're happy to have the inconvenience of the VCR, but are you also happy to have to pay 20-30% too much for a gun or silencer? If the VCR Act hadn't come into existence, market forces would undoubtedly have had a far greater effect and would undoubtedly have forced companies to run more efficiently and to operate on much lower margins. I've seen it happen countless time over the last 15 or so years. If RFDs collectively spread fear and paranoia, it stops companies like BAR, Uttings, JSR, etc mail ordering, competing and market prices coming down as a result.

There's also the issue of the EU and free competition. As an EU member (unfortunately), we should operate under the principle of a single free market economy, where an individual or company can operate anywhere without commercial disadvantage. Yet it's clear that UK companies, constrained by the VCR Act are significantly disadvantaged, as they can't mail order guns, when a company from outside the UK can.

At the end of the day, if there is no law restricting the mail order delivery of things like silencers, we shouldn't have to capitulate out of fear. If, as I suspect, there's nothing which specifically restricts sale of sub 12 ft lb components, it would be naive to seek the advice of the Police, BASC, etc, at face value and to start a mail order market based on that alone. But, if it is lawful, there's nothing to stop us collectively taking the question to a higher authority for clarification.
HERE HERE........  /bravo2/
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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2012, 01:11:41 AM »

I for one am perfectly happy to have the inconvenience of the VCR law. Yes it makes it a bit harder to place your hands on some items...but that's the point. I feel better knowing that it is harder for the people who would use those items unlawfully to lay their hands on them.
So suck it up folks it's all in the name of safety and keeping abuse of our chosen sporting implements to a minimum.

No way, I can tell you right now that the ones you want to worry about wont have any trouble at all getting hold of the stuff that we have to work so hard to get.

 Yes cat shooting chavs wont find it so easy but they are not going to stop shooting cats because its hard to get a silencer, the druggies, armed robbers etc who wont to adapt them for use on their handguns etc, it will never stop them, and they are supposedly the targets of the bull**** "violent crime reductions act".

 Rather than waste time and money writing worthless things like that which just makes life awkward for the law abiding responsible people who make up the massive majority, they should try making changes that allow us to deal appropriately with the scum responsible for violent crime.  But no we just get numpties like the self proclaimed “psyco” who thinks its funny to shoot someone random in the head at point blank range then laugh at the courts when they sentence him, because he loves his new life of luxury in jail!. As usual its all truly a joke to the criminals, but extremely sad and most uncomforting for the victims and their families.
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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2012, 12:00:31 AM »

Just like how the Handgun Ban worked  /ooooppppps2/ Took all the guns from the legal law abiding users and left all the unlicensed guns in the hands of the Criminals. All the VCR act done imo was stop mail order and drum up business for RFDs. Next will be a licence of some sort for Airguns with a fee of course,millions of households with Airguns so a nice little money earner for them issuing the licences.  /arghhhhhh2/
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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2012, 01:39:07 AM »

"drum up business for RFDs"
I don't think so, we (RFD's) can't sell either new or secondhand guns or silencers via post any more. That doesn't help sales, but those customers who are put off by having to visit an RFD and prove age/identity are probably not the sort of customers I need and also probably not the sort of persons who should be trusted with an airgun or any other firearm or sharp object.
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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2012, 09:36:22 AM »

I don't think so, we (RFD's) can't sell either new or secondhand guns or silencers via post any more. That doesn't help sales, but those customers who are put off by having to visit an RFD and prove age/identity are probably not the sort of customers I need and also probably not the sort of persons who should be trusted with an airgun or any other firearm or sharp object.
          Very well put R.T. I second that mate.

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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2012, 11:09:30 AM »

I don't think so, we (RFD's) can't sell either new or secondhand guns or silencers via post any more. That doesn't help sales, but those customers who are put off by having to visit an RFD and prove age/identity are probably not the sort of customers I need and also probably not the sort of persons who should be trusted with an airgun or any other firearm or sharp object.

but it leaves very little choise when it comes to shopping around.
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RANCiDTOM

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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2012, 11:24:47 AM »

but it leaves very little choise when it comes to shopping around.
Manufacturers and RFD's are still allowed to advertise, if you see an advert for a silencer or gun that your local RFD hasn't got you only have to ask if they'll order one in for you or if you're really that keen to get it asap get in your car and drive to the nearest stockist. No stockist will carry every gun and silencer available even if they are "online" you may still have to wait for stock to arrive.
I could have a gripe about the VCR act costing me time writing everything in the sales register and sales that I "might" have got if I'd been able to just take a credit card number and post the goods but I won't. I don't think the VCR act has significantly affected those who abide by the law. It's arguable that it may (or may not) have plugged loopholes in sales to underage purchasers or those excluded from ownership due to criminal or mental health records etc.
If you wish to complain about the VCR act or the Firearms acts then address complaints to your MP and the Home Office, but I'll be honest, don't hold your breath waiting for changes.
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hypoboy

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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2012, 12:36:05 PM »

Manufacturers and RFD's are still allowed to advertise, if you see an advert for a silencer or gun that your local RFD hasn't got you only have to ask if they'll order one in for you

Trouble with that is, you then end up either paying full retail, or a premium for them sourcing it. Or, you can mail order and have it delivered to your local RFD, who'll then charge you <£25 handling charge for the privilege.

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