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Author Topic: DAFT Silencer LAW  (Read 11266 times)

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waddy177

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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2012, 12:46:56 PM »

Trouble with that is, you then end up either paying full retail, or a premium for them sourcing it. Or, you can mail order and have it delivered to your local RFD, who'll then charge you <£25 handling charge for the privilege.

thats what i mean i had a 2 hour drive to buy my r10 saving me £170 minus petrol because l could not get the same price localy.
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RANCiDTOM

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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2012, 01:11:04 PM »

Paying full retail price? Why does everybody expect discounts? I don't want to turn my business into "DFS" who have a 364 day "sale" with everything half price just because on one day a year I mark the prices up to ludricrous levels so I can claim I'm giving a discount.
If somebody wants to order a silencer for collection from me I will quote them the recommended retail price and I will charge a nominal fee for putting the deal through my books. In case you aren't aware the RFD ticket costs money, I and other retailers have overheads and we can only recover them from making a profit when selling goods. Some RFD's may charge more than I do for the service of completing the paperwork, some RFD's may be prepared to undercut the MRP to gain a sale, that's economics in a free market. Think of the bigger picture, without RFD's all over the country shooters would be in a lot more difficult position, if all guns and silencers were in large mail order warehouses we'd have to survive on secondhand sales and repairs. How long do you think a small business could survive like that? There isn't a massive mark up on guns and silencers, I don't get a huge trade discount, having an RFD ticket is not a licence to print money.
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waddy177

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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2012, 01:59:30 PM »

So you would not shop around to save £170?
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RANCiDTOM

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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2012, 02:09:13 PM »

That's a damned expensive silencer or somebody is doing a DFS trick on you!
"Weihrauch silencer, £170 off normal retail price (£225), special reduced price just for internet customers £45!!!"
Erm, unlikely innit?
Phone around, ask your local RFD what he can do, remember that he's a resource you'll lose if the internet warehouses take over and that may cost you in the long run.
That's off topic anyway, the VCR act poses restrictions on RFDs as well as customers who are too lazy to travel to an RFD, what on earth do you want? Autoloading shotguns handguns and assault rifles on mail order? Face it, it won't happen and I for one am glad it won't.
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waddy177

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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2012, 02:35:41 PM »

It was a rifle i made the saving on and i did ask my local rfd who wasn't intrested so i did travel but if i was buying a silencer or pellets then with the traveling costs there would be no point.
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RANCiDTOM

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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2012, 02:53:39 PM »

Fine, but you see my point? The RFD either couldn't afford to match the discount or perhaps he was just too disinterested in making an effort. Quite possibly his "buying power" couldn't match the other supplier who either had guns in stock or was able to persuade the manufacturer/distributor to give him a better price. That's hardly the fault of the VCR act as large buyers will always get preferential rates to small orders from individual RFD's.
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waddy177

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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2012, 03:33:36 PM »

Yes i can it seems that this law only makes things more difficult for both rfds and the customer whilst doing little to actualy reduce crime.
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hypoboy

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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2012, 07:23:13 PM »

Fine, but you see my point? The RFD either couldn't afford to match the discount or perhaps he was just too disinterested in making an effort. Quite possibly his "buying power" couldn't match the other supplier who either had guns in stock or was able to persuade the manufacturer/distributor to give him a better price. That's hardly the fault of the VCR act as large buyers will always get preferential rates to small orders from individual RFD's.
I think what you're saying really exemplifies the issue with a lot of the businesses (I don't consider any of this to be aimed at you personally BTW). Traditionally, "rip off" high street Britain probably made an average 40% plus GP on most products. Price pressure from mail order and internet price comparison has probably halved that. In consumer electronics, high street chains are selling at below 10% GP on a regular basis. Retail businesses have had to change attitude and adopt different marketing strategies, and those that haven't have fallen by the wayside. Big high street chains now have to loss lead and sell key lines at very low margins to buy customer loyalty and put increasing pressure on wholesalers and suppliers to cut their margin and offer more aggressive cost prices too.

A lot of RFDs seem to think that, because they're in the protective bubble of the VCR, they can quote a customer a high margin price because, even if the customer walks out of the door, they'll be back in a day or two anyway, as they can only buy product from them and not shop around via mail order. In reality, it's putting the price of some products in a disproportionately high price bracket. I've seen a fair few industries do the same and, sooner or later, rather than the retailer remaining happy with his margins, the customer just stops buying the product. If RFDs took a longer term view, sold products at lower margins, put more pressure on suppliers for better cost pricing, the whole market just stays that much more buoyant. Selling a high ticket item at low margin, price matching big players, etc, all buys customer loyalty and has them coming back regularly to the same place for cheap items where they're less likely to quibble about the price.

Take something like an entry level PCP. Say, for argument's sake, a BSA Ultra. Can you honestly tell me that the current market price represent a fair and genuine price for the sum of the component parts? Clearly, someone, somewhere down the supply chain is making a substantial margin on this type of product. RFDs who take the attitude that it's a sale at high margin, or no sale at all are going to find that the market will no longer sustain that type of attitude, particularly in the current financial climate where fuel costs 50% more than 5 years ago and the majority of the market are feeling the pinch financially. I'd suspect some of the recent high profile RFD bankruptcies are just examples of that effect.
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katluke

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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2012, 09:22:18 PM »

I don't think so, we (RFD's) can't sell either new or secondhand guns or silencers via post any more. That doesn't help sales, but those customers who are put off by having to visit an RFD and prove age/identity are probably not the sort of customers I need and also probably not the sort of persons who should be trusted with an airgun or any other firearm or sharp object.

Before the VCR ACT you could buy Guns,Silencers etc via mail order/Internet. Now if you dont buy direct from the shop you have to go through a RFD so yes imo it did make business for some RFDs.There has been some good points made both for and against the VCR act in this thread which I have took on board however before the VCR ACT it was just a case of finding the best deal and it was delivered direct to your door. With millions of Airguns already in use not covered by the VCR ACT I believe its only a matter of time before a Licence of some sort is brought in to deal with all the existing guns,and of course the revenue it would make for the Government as I would be very surprised if the Licence was free.
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spider.25

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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2012, 02:49:04 PM »

The problem is that the VCR act was needed in the first place. As with the rest of the problems in this country the symptoms are fought not the cause. The problem is that there ARE those people who would brake the law using items covered by the VCR act. It is not the items that need controlled but the individuals that would abuse them. But It's far easier and more effective to restrict the sale of moderators than tell someone that they are being a very bad person and what would their mother think.
When all is said and done would you not rather go a little out of your way or pay a few quid more knowing that at lest a few crimes have failed to occur because it was a little inconvenient to get a shiny new rifle or moderator?
I know I would.
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waddy177

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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #40 on: August 21, 2012, 03:19:05 PM »

I would rather have all the criminals shot then I could buy a minigun from the internet  /smile/
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ChrisV

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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #41 on: August 22, 2012, 05:28:02 PM »

Just like how the Handgun Ban worked  /ooooppppps2/ Took all the guns from the legal law abiding users and left all the unlicensed guns in the hands of the Criminals. All the VCR act done imo was stop mail order and drum up business for RFDs. Next will be a licence of some sort for Airguns with a fee of course,millions of households with Airguns so a nice little money earner for them issuing the licences.  /arghhhhhh2/
Unfortunately, you are probably right in this. It happened many times with Firearms.
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MikeTheFish

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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #42 on: August 23, 2012, 03:40:32 PM »

A large part of the problem is that there is a rather unfortunate trend to reactionary lawmaking in the UK. That is to say much of the legislation governing firearms, airguns, knives etc was made in the wake of some tragic event which garnered large-scale media coverage and was written more to score political points than to be actually effective.

Ramrodding the banning of whatever "dangerous weapon" is currently in the spotlight will score a politician a few thousand votes but ultimately does little to address the underlying problem. Banning things doesn't make them go away, just makes them harder to track...

The current legislation as applied to airguns, accessories and component parts thereof causes headaches for EVERYONE along the supply chain, from manufacturer to end user. Not least because, as has already been pointed out, it's as clear as mud... In my own case, lacking a car I am not able to travel much in order to "shop around", leaving me at the mercy of my "local" RFDs, and I'm not exactly spoiled for choice. Realistically, I know that the two main gentlemen I deal with CAN be flexible on prices and have on occasion gotten rather good deals. At the same time I have also found myself paying over the odds on some items, and the money I could potentially save by going elsewhere is exceeded by the cost of GOING there.

Personally, I would like to see the restrictions (if indeed they truly exist, there seems to be some debate) on selling accessories such as moderators by mail order lifted. A moderator by itself isn't a particularly useful piece of hardware (perhaps as a lightweight cosh?). So long as the sale of the gun itself remains properly controlled, one should reasonably be able to assume that anyone purchasing a moderator or similar device is ALREADY on record for the initial purchase of the gun it is intended for.
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ChrisV

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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #43 on: August 24, 2012, 08:11:15 AM »

Manufacturers and RFD's are still allowed to advertise, if you see an advert for a silencer or gun that your local RFD hasn't got you only have to ask if they'll order one in for you or if you're really that keen to get it asap get in your car and drive to the nearest stockist. No stockist will carry every gun and silencer available even if they are "online" you may still have to wait for stock to arrive.
I could have a gripe about the VCR act costing me time writing everything in the sales register and sales that I "might" have got if I'd been able to just take a credit card number and post the goods but I won't. I don't think the VCR act has significantly affected those who abide by the law. It's arguable that it may (or may not) have plugged loopholes in sales to underage purchasers or those excluded from ownership due to criminal or mental health records etc.
If you wish to complain about the VCR act or the Firearms acts then address complaints to your MP and the Home Office, but I'll be honest, don't hold your breath waiting for changes.
Not true, Manufacturers and RFD's are NOT allowed to advertise. Just try to advertise anything about guns and shooting on the television! That is apart from crime soaps were everyone seems to have a Glock or Berretta tucked into the back of their trousers Most of these programs seem to be imported from the US as a cheap substitute for entertainment!
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hypoboy

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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #44 on: August 24, 2012, 10:22:34 AM »

Not true, Manufacturers and RFD's are NOT allowed to advertise. Just try to advertise anything about guns and shooting on the television!
It's also heavily restricted online. Can't advertise on eBay or Amazon (even if delivery is RFD to RFD, or collection in person) and Google Adwords sponsored results on search pages are not allowed to contain references to firearms.
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RANCiDTOM

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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #45 on: August 24, 2012, 10:33:57 AM »

Open any shooting magazine and there are adverts for silencers, flash arresters and guns.
Every website run by a gunshop carries adverts for their stock. John Knibbs, Chambers, B.A.R., Uttings....
That is advertising, we (RFD's) are allowed to advertise that we sell silencers, we can even show pictures, quote prices but we have to say we can only sell face to face on collection or arrange delivery to another RFD etc.
Sure we can't advertise on the telly, but you can't advertise cigs on the telly either and there are still programs aired showing people smerkin' a tab!
To be honest I wouldn't want to advertise my services or sales anywhere else than in specialist shooting publications, I certainly don't want a queue of "Sun" readers wanting to buy an airgun "Like the one wot Ashley Cole has" knocking on my door.
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hypoboy

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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #46 on: August 24, 2012, 11:15:02 AM »

Magazine advertising IMO has had its day. Costs invariably run into 100s of £s, if not 1000s and rates of return are appallingly low, unless you're someone like a gun manufacturer building a brand running full page ads, month in, month out.

Google's blocking ads for guns annoys me though as I can guarantee, if it were available, it could have a dramatic effect on your business RT. You could, for example, run a campaign targeting anyone within a 30 mile radius of our business searching for, say, "gunsmith in swindon", paying something like 10p per click to drive them to a web site, or "click to call" to connect them directly to your number from a mobile. As you're an RFD, it's self evident that you're running a lawful and legitimate business, yet Google, who dominate the web search arena block you from advertising, where the chip shop up the road can do so, simply because they don't like guns. A monopolistic organisation like Google shouldn't be able to block a lawful business from advertising in this manner IMO. I think if I were an RFD, I'd be lobbying BASC and my local MP to try and get this type of censorship eroded.
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RANCiDTOM

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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #47 on: August 24, 2012, 11:36:52 AM »

Good point there Hypoboy, I do know google will actually produce search results when you search for a specific name of a gunshop but didn't know they had a policy banning results from searches like "gun dealer Swindon". I think I shall ask BASC if they can or will consider starting to lobby in this direction.
As above though, if it's too easy for people to find me I'll get lots of timewaster calls from spotty kids asking me can I tune their Umarex Beretta up "so it will drill next doors moggie".  /grrrrrrrrrr/
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hypoboy

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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #48 on: August 24, 2012, 11:47:17 AM »

I think the opposite now applies and the high quality advertising is now online. Yellow Pages was always the first place of choice to advertise but, in the last year or two, now seems to have descended to the point where it only produces the lowest grade of enquiry. Lets face it, if you're looking for a plumber, chip shop, new car, etc, etc, what's the first thing you do? I wouldn't mind betting the majority of people head straight online, go straight to Google and do a search. The majority of businesses can pay a small premium to have an ad appear alongside those results, but lawful RFDs are excluded from doing so because of Google's policy on guns.
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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #49 on: August 24, 2012, 11:40:40 PM »

I think the opposite now applies and the high quality advertising is now online. Yellow Pages was always the first place of choice to advertise but, in the last year or two, now seems to have descended to the point where it only produces the lowest grade of enquiry. Lets face it, if you're looking for a plumber, chip shop, new car, etc, etc, what's the first thing you do? I wouldn't mind betting the majority of people head straight online, go straight to Google and do a search. The majority of businesses can pay a small premium to have an ad appear alongside those results, but lawful RFDs are excluded from doing so because of Google's policy on guns.
Not only Google, but eBay in the UK!
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stubradley1

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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #50 on: November 29, 2013, 10:37:02 PM »

I may have missed something as i was speed reading.

Face to face sale.  Does the RFD and Customer having a video call (i.e web cams) count??
You can hold up a driving licence or passport too.

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RANCiDTOM

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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #51 on: December 03, 2013, 02:12:35 PM »

No, face to face means in the flesh not face to camera/screen I'm afraid!
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mattw975

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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #52 on: July 15, 2014, 07:44:54 AM »

Durham Police have other thoughts on Airgun Moderators.

https://www.durham.police.uk/Information-and-advice/firearms-and-firearms-licensing/Pages/Sound-Moderators.aspx




A silencer/moderator is listed as a "firearm accessory or component" and as such has to be recorded in the register of sales, hence the VCR act applies. Face to face with proof of identity and age.
As regards to the "lease" of a firearm, firearm accessory or component part:
From the Home Office document "Firearms law, guidance to police" 2002.
No "loopholes" there then.

The 1937 firearms act section 16 statesand section 32 of the same act states:Quite simple when you know where to look. It's a shame the firearms legislation is actually a bit of a nightmare to search through with it's original act being 1937 and the subsequent amendments adding further restrictions and not necessarily "clarifying" any previous acts or amendments.
In a nutshell the firearms act defines an air rifle as a firearm and a silencer as an accessory to a firearm (no mention of proof marks or serial numbers) and that all such transactions involving firearms, component parts or accessories by an RFD must be recorded in the register.
The VCR act defined that no firearm (or pressure bearing component, or accessory) may be posted by an RFD except to another RFD for the purposes of sale or transfer.
The VCR act also stated that airgun repairs may be posted from an RFD to the address of the owner of the item. Not to any other address.
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RANCiDTOM

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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #53 on: July 15, 2014, 10:47:14 AM »

Durham Police have other thoughts on Airgun Moderators.

https://www.durham.police.uk/Information-and-advice/firearms-and-firearms-licensing/Pages/Sound-Moderators.aspx

There are updates and re-interpretations published all the time by different constabularies, although there is a move to get all constabularies using the same interpretation of the Firearms and VCR acts as yet there are still discrepancies. Obviously in the nearly 2 years since I wrote the original statement which you quoted Durham constabulary have published their latest interpretations, other constabularies may or may not use this interpretation.
As an RFD there are differences in the requirements of recording repairs, sales and transfers evident between different constabularies, although the Home Office have expressed that every constabulary should interpret the acts in a similar manner this will take some time to actually happen.




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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #54 on: July 16, 2014, 12:54:45 PM »

The rules regarding the VCR Act 2006 Airgun sound moderators are very straightforward, it's the ACPO guidelines to the VCR Act published in 2007 that causes the confusion.

The VCR Act 2006 is very clear in its wording, sections 31-34 of the Act refers to Air Weapons. The Firearms Act 1968 defines an Air Weapon as an "air rifle, air gun or air pistol".

There can be no confusion or mis-interpretation here, one Act references a definition from another Act. Sound moderators are not mentioned at all in the Act.

It is the VCR Act of law that GB citizens must abide by. The Police's role is to enforce this law, not to re-write it.

What has happened here is the Police have tried to get Airgun moderators & their component parts in through the back door by publishing their guideline as they know what the implications are in getting the Act changed.




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RANCiDTOM

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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #55 on: July 16, 2014, 01:03:39 PM »

It doesn't make a lot of difference if your local constabulary prosecute you, it may take a long time and a lot of effort toprove innocence.
As an RFD I comply with the recommendations of my FEO and Chief Constable, if I don't then I might find my RFD status removed. I'm not going to martyr myself over a detail.
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mattw975

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Re: DAFT Silencer LAW
« Reply #56 on: July 16, 2014, 02:36:08 PM »

I wouldn't expect you to RT, you are an RFD & it is your livelihood. Of course it is in your interest to toe the line with the Police. My point is that the VCR Act does not actually cover Airgun Sound Moderators.





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