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Author Topic: Ideal Action  (Read 226 times)

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Cyclopse

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Ideal Action
« on: November 10, 2018, 08:53:49 PM »

It's not often I shoot my guns in the garden, don't want to upset the neighbours but this morning I thought I would check my zero's and put them through the chrono. I have exactly 28yds sitting at a table to targets.
I don't like using euphemisms like pellet on pellet or one hole but my Goldstar SE is as near I will ever get to one hole shots, it is so accurate. The AA S510, I love the side lever action, so smooth, a joy to shoot. The Scorpion is probably 10 years old and another pleasure to shoot.
I then thought of the good points of each rifle thinking why don't BSA do a side lever action, how good would that be on the likes of the R-10, Goldstar or Scorpion. But they do, Look at the new Bullpup the Defiant, That action in a full sized gun would be worth looking at. Any chance of that happening?
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Ranger22

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Re: Ideal Action
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2018, 07:49:58 AM »

I don’t know.

I would like to think BSA are always thinking ahead and designing new and interesting airguns but in reality I don’t think they do. To me they appear one step behind. I will still keep to BSA guns, I do like what I have and it suits my uses perfectly
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K38

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Re: Ideal Action
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2018, 06:49:02 PM »

  What you have to remember is BSA is not its own master..
  Taken over by the Spanish company Gamo several years ago because they did not invest and prosper ..
  BSA is lucky to a point, so many British companies have been purchased and asset stripped and the name sold on ebay..
  Just look at webley as an example, several disastrous years and now everything comes from Turkey..Webley who ??
  Gamo is a volume seller and invested heavily in producing air rifles cheaper than yesterday.
  Gamo has a PCP that is made from BSAs parts bin and until they see a very large demand for PCPs BSA is safe..
  You can see from some of the abominations that BSA has set on the market in recent time that there design and R&D is very limited..
  They do well with the very old designs from years back but basically nothing new .
  As an example of a present thread, they cant even nickle plate a part without it flaking off but thats why we love them.. :25:
  With an MD that could see no future in Bull Pups they end up with a dogs breakfast just to have on display..
  When you look at Air Arms 100% British you can see it can be done correctly and they produce world bating air rifles..
  Unless some one can take back BSA from Gamo the future is much of a same so to speak..
  At least there are many of the older air rifles from BSA out there .Purchase renovate and educate your youngsters of what quality was/is and they will never buy a Gamo..
   K38.
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rkr

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Re: Ideal Action
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2018, 07:13:01 PM »

Making a sidelever version of BSA is enterily possible, just takes an engineer, a milling machine and some experimentation (with proper engineer it should work at first try). The fact that they don't want to do it tells a story about their innovation and R&D level.
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Huub Viking Mk2 Bullpup.177/.22 - grab'n go gun
BSA Scorpion .25 - 100M BR at 60 fpe
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Cyclopse

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Re: Ideal Action
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2018, 08:04:43 PM »

The BSA Defiant Bullpup is never going to be a big seller. I can't understand why they would develop a side lever action for a fringe gun like the Defiant and would not consider having it in a range of standard stock guns, look how popular side lever action is other brand leaders.
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rkr

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Re: Ideal Action
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2018, 06:37:34 AM »

What we are seeing now in airgun world is the introduction of reasonably priced semi-autos from manufacturers like Evanix, Kral, Hatsan etc. If we consider that BSA can't even produce a sidelever breech their changes of keeping up and making a semi-auto are about zero. As much as I would like to see a nice 12 fpe semi-auto version of Ultra I must agree with what K38 said, BSA PCPs will have a place in history but most likely not in the modern world of airguns.
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RANCiDTOM

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Re: Ideal Action
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2018, 10:27:09 AM »

I think Gamo will dictate which way BSA development goes in the future, we already see Gamo parts on BSA guns (OK that's logical from a production/profit point of view but when the quality of the part isn't good it takes the quality of the whole gun down).
Will Gamo be interested in pushing the limits and becoming a leading edge designer of new exiting airguns? I very much doubt it as they have for many years taken the option to make large quantities of cheap and cheerful guns. This approach will be hard to keep up as the cheaper "nasty" end of the market is being filled by Chinese/Taiwanese guns and you can bet these gun manufacturers won't be scared of expanding their markets and if they have to do so they will develop higher quality guns that will appeal more to the European and American markets.
Unless BSA get Gamo to allow them to spend money and time developing new ideas and designs they will be dead in the water in a few years, simply a UK barrel manufacturer for Barcelona Small Arms Co, assembling some UK parts to largely Spanish made components and slapping a BSA stamp on them. The springers are already more Spanish than British, now it's creeping into the PCP's as well. Even the Goldstar and the awful Defiant has the crap Gamo fill/pressure gauge assembly almost identical to the one fitted to the Phox and the "Ultra" XL which even has the Gamo throwaway trigger.
This is simply an echo of what happened to Webley after the take-over by Hatsan, assembling a few Turkish made parts and sticking a "Made in Birmingham" badge on the gun. Where are Webley now?
It would seem that BSA have caught the same disease that killed the British bike industry in the 60's/70's, Norton, Triumph, BSA etc were concentrating on "same as last year but cheaper (so we can make more profits)" while companies like Honda invested in development. Norton may have laughed at the "lawnmowewr engined pushbikes" that Honda etc started out with in the early days but where are they now? Largest manufacturer in the world, continually developing to stay at the top of the tree. If they fall asleep Kawasaki, Yamaha and Suzuki will be taking their sales, so they keep on developing. Add to that Ducati are also pouring money and time into race development and as a result they are growing.
What lesson can we learn from this?
BSA are sadly not likely to survive much longer, the next economic slide may well see them fall off the edge of Gamo's funding and simply become a warehouse for Spanish made guns.
I'm not holding my breath for any significant development from BSA, likewise Air Arms don't seem to be moving forwards, their guns haven't changed much since the 300 series, their company doesn't seem to be development led, simply making a 510 out of 410 parts which are basically more modern (cheaper and easier to produce) 310 parts.
Sadly we are seeing the closing acts of the British made quality air rifle play, the German and Eastern European/Russian guns are where the top of the quality and development are at and the Chinese/Taiwanese will soon be snapping at their heels.
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rkr

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Re: Ideal Action
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2018, 12:26:27 PM »

It is actually rather interesting that Evanix, Kral and JKHan share their basic designs while being manufactured in different parts of world. I wonder who does those designs? Also Huben, a rather sophisticated and unique design for a Chinese gun. To be honest it seems that innovative airgun designs do not happen in western Europe anymore, rather east Europe, far east and USA.
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K38

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Re: Ideal Action
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2018, 10:43:44 PM »

  I think Air Arms are doing OK..They could have produced a side leaver "BULL PUP" lash up to fill the slot but they spent a lot of time and money producing the Galahad that is one of the best if not the best bull pup..Sorry to spoil your day Tom by mentioning bull pups  :hee20hee20hee:
  I think Gamo do well in the entry level air gun market ..They seem to hold there own against the subsidized Chinese stuff and an EU that is not interested in a level playing field..
  The air gun market is not like the car industry with a new model every six months..
  The only company like that is Daystate but they are 100% Italian owned and financed ..They rely on Special additions at high prices for the collector to hopefully  cash in for a profit in the future..
  Trying to manufacture airguns in the UK is very hard work and the bureaucracy and government do nothing to help these companies, infact it is the opposite..
  Future air gun development , as we have spoken about in another thread, is the self loading or semi auto feature for accurate feeding and shooting  of 5-10 shots without a bolt or side leaver being required..So there is your first problem in the UK police and government objection will make this a big NO NO  :03:
  So export will be the there only Market and as you have seen in the past with rifles etc  fine UK companies like Accuracy International just moved to the USA and flourished..
  The other area of air gun development is "HIGH POWER and LARGE CALIBER" air guns..The same fate awaits them in the UK..
  When you look at the options for the UK air gun market and having politicians hell bent on making you the EU door mat the future is going to be very tough ..
  Never been very keen on the french but I have to take my hat off to them ,a bloody good riot and there Government dose a 180 ..Now thats Democracy working for the people.. :hee20hee20hee:

   K38..
 
 
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rkr

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Re: Ideal Action
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2018, 07:38:15 AM »

High power and large caliber bullet shooting airguns are getting rather popular across the big pond where they are used for hunting. We are seeing 150-300 fpe offerings in .308-.45 caliber range from many manufacturers. Another thing gaining in popularity is long range airgun shooting (100-300 yards) with cast bullets and for that manufacturers like Airforce and AAA are pushing out guns in calibers like .257 and .308. I believe it won't be long until we see also .224 guns being offered for public. The thing is all these are capable of 100+ fpe so we will see them in only few European countries. A .224 provides ballistics similar to a .22lr with subs and bigger calibers have even better BCs making them very different from your traditional pellet shooters.
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RANCiDTOM

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Re: Ideal Action
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2018, 10:16:01 AM »

High power and large caliber bullet shooting airguns are getting rather popular across the big pond where they are used for hunting. We are seeing 150-300 fpe offerings in .308-.45 caliber range from many manufacturers. Another thing gaining in popularity is long range airgun shooting (100-300 yards) with cast bullets and for that manufacturers like Airforce and AAA are pushing out guns in calibers like .257 and .308. I believe it won't be long until we see also .224 guns being offered for public. The thing is all these are capable of 100+ fpe so we will see them in only few European countries. A .224 provides ballistics similar to a .22lr with subs and bigger calibers have even better BCs making them very different from your traditional pellet shooters.
It is a great shame that the UK and other European countries have 12FtLb limits, but it's not impossible to get high power airguns as the licensing is available. It limits the market and many people (certainly in England/Wales) will feel that the option of high power airguns is overshadowed by the easily available rimfires such as .22LR.
Like you say a .224 bullet from am airgun giving 100+FtLb will give similar ballistics to a .22LR but the cost of developing weighed against the number of sales will probably deter most manufacturers meaning that the mainland UK market will probably only see imports from America or Eastern Europe/Russia/China. Simple economics says that a shooter with a licence is more likely to spend a few hundred pounds on a new CZ .22LR rather than an air rifle costing probably double that (even when mass produced for the other markets). A custom made gun from a UK gun maker might well fit the bill but that's only going to account for a few, Daystate may well produce a limited special edition .224 FAC gun to "commemorate" something but you can bet the starting price will be £2.5K and only of interest to a serious collector of limited edition Daystates.
I doubt Gamo would be interested unless they see a niche in the US market but let's face it Gamo sell a lot of cheap guns in the 16J area all over Europe and the US, for them to look at selling a few hundred (maybe) per year of a larger calibre gun that may sell in the US or Eastern Europe/Russia I really doubt that would interest Gamo to invest in development of larger barrels, higher capacity air tubes and higher flow exhaust valves which may compete against say a Benjamin Marauder or Bulldog. The US market likes "home grown" guns, there is a percentage of that market that would pay a small premium for an English gun but it would have to be top quality, no compromise to persuade our US friends to part with their dollars for one instead of a good old US made shooting iron. I don't think Gamo would invest in the time to allow BSA to develop such a gun on the hope of convincing the US that it's a worthwhile purchase.
I do wish we had a UK company who were free thinking enough and had enough money to develop such a gun but the market forces would suggest that the bulk of their sales would be export, in which case why not set up in the country where the majority of the sales might be?
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rkr

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Re: Ideal Action
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2018, 08:39:58 PM »

It's not hard to make a .224 bullet shooter working at 100 fpe, I turned an old Hornet to do that for around 200 pounds. Daystate already has 100 fpe models so it would be just a change of barrel and probe + tuning, that's actually done by Dutch company already. Evanix and Air force are easy to change as well and AF already has a .257 model for sale. Not much reasearch needed really, us shed tuners have already sorted it out.
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RANCiDTOM

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Re: Ideal Action
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2018, 10:46:40 PM »

It's not hard to make a .224 bullet shooter working at 100 fpe, I turned an old Hornet to do that for around 200 pounds. Daystate already has 100 fpe models so it would be just a change of barrel and probe + tuning, that's actually done by Dutch company already. Evanix and Air force are easy to change as well and AF already has a .257 model for sale. Not much reasearch needed really, us shed tuners have already sorted it out.
I know, but the company who produces such a gun will have to make certain that they've got all the legal procedures in place for exporting as I said earlier the home market in the UK isn't really going to sell enough guns. Export licenses are already in place for BSA and Daystate as far as I know but it's a major obstacle to conquer for a new manufacturer or a very small company.
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cerqud

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Re: Ideal Action
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2018, 03:40:46 PM »

Gamo has already contracted with Evanix and made a big bore .357 and a .45 under their Winchester brand.
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RANCiDTOM

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Re: Ideal Action
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2018, 04:51:13 PM »

Gamo has already contracted with Evanix and made a big bore .357 and a .45 under their Winchester brand.
Gamo obviously realise they can sell more "Winchesters" in the US than BSA's.
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cerqud

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Re: Ideal Action
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2018, 05:26:58 PM »

Yep, I think Gamo got the Winchester airgun rights when they recently aquired Daisy.  Daisy put out a BSA based 10meter gun for the Civilan Marksmanship Program this year as well.

 Between BSA building the Gamo PCPs and supplying the pcp barrels they're pretty busy on the production side at least.  Its crazy that you can buy a Gamo Urban for $140 here in the US.

https://www.nrafamily.org/articles/2018/11/30/first-impressions-daisys-model-599-10-meter-competition-air-rifle/
« Last Edit: December 08, 2018, 05:35:58 PM by cerqud »
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